whether it's in russia or iran, you hear the international community of journalist speak out against it. you see the campaigns that captures the attention of world leaders, and certainly the western leaders, in the strongest condemnation possible. and yet, as we are seeing in this situation, an alarming rate, the killing of journalists is really not getting the kind of attention it deserves, by many leaders. certainly western countries, that claim to hold up the mantle of free speech and the importance of a free press, and the importance of journalists. but, medina, it's always great to see you. i know look, you and i have had many many hand over us over the last several years. but, i believe this one, two to our schedule, is probably going to be the last hand over. and it is one to say, it's always been a pleasure to share these comments with you every night. i always learn from you, but i've really come to enjoy our sunday night handovers. so, it will be the last one between the two of us, but i'm sure we will come up with something as exciting as for

our viewers in the weeks and months ahead. >> i've loved every single one except for the one where you made me -- because of france. list well >> listen, we'll come up with something, and who knows ahead of the next, maybe we'll find something else that we can put a non-, a non-friendly wager, we will see. anyway my friend, good to see you as always, great show. tonight on ayman, major developments in january 6th cases, including how the special counsel plans to use donald trump cell phone data from his time as president at trial. plus, fighting for their lives. the devastating impact of gop restrictions on abortion, and at the presidential candidates that do not seem to care. and then, brazen hypocrisy. the republicans running the biden impeachment inquiry is accused of engaging in the same type of deal making that he once impeached president biden for. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get it started. ♪ ♪ ♪

it's never too late to say that i am sorry. that is, of course, unless you are apology's court mandated. my guest, it's a little bit different situation. they obtained letters of two of the former trump attorneys who struck plea agreements in the following county and election interference case. sydney powell and kenneth chesebro, both handwriting ace one sentence apology on lying notebook paper to the citizens of the state of georgia. the pair, along with dependents scott hall and jenna alice were had to write the letters in terms of their plea agreements with fulton county prosecutors earlier this fall. that is far from the only major leap in development this, week new efforts to overturn the 2020 election. former white house chief of staff mark meadows had the is gambit to move the georgia criminal trial to a federal court. he received a chill reception on friday at the 11th circuit court of appeals.

the three judge panel expressed skepticism concerning meadows claim that his efforts to subvert democracy were taken in his official capacity as the chief of staff. suffice to stay that bad news from meadows, well, should he lose this appeal, he will face trial before a state judge and jury on charges of participating in a racketeering conspiracy. meanwhile, fulton county d.a. fani willis sat down for an interview with the associated press this week where she stated that it is -- quote, a silly notion that her case should pause for the 2020 -- the 2024 general election, excuse me. also nowhere, the she declined to say whether she or members of her team had been in communication with the special counsel jack smith. a man that has also had a very, very busy week. we learn from court filings on monday that smith plans to use data from donaldtrump's white house cell phone records in the federal 2020 election interference case.

as put by kyle cheney and josh gerstein at politico. the data from trump's phones could reveal a day today details of his final weeks in office, including his movements, his twitter habits, and any of his aides that had access to his accounts and devices. the data, for example, could show whether trump personally approved or sent a fateful tweet attacking his vice president, mike pence, during the riot at the capitol. the filings perhaps are the clearest glimpse into the trove of evidence to scott smith has -- over the last few months. at the very least, we do know this. these phone records will be a major headache for the ex president. joining me now our melissa murray, msnbc legal analyst, a professor of law at and why you, and a former law clerk to judge sonia sort of my or. and phil wilson, running for the -- against the devil. a plan to save american from trump and democrats from themselves.

and former congressman donna edwards, also an embassy easy political analyst. we'll start with you. i'm curious on your thoughts on kenneth chesebro and sidney powell's so-called apology letters there. they are pretty pathetic. certainly like any sincerity or authenticity. is there any noteworthy this, or is that somewhat standard when such a note is part of a plea deal that did not have any sincerity to it. >> i think that these notes could most generously be described as perfunctory. generally, when somebody is asked to write a letter of remorse to the judge or jury, they do spend a spare amount of time replanting for what they have done. again, it is part of this process of accepting those responsibilities from prior misconduct. the fact that these were about one sentence-long and seemed to have been guided off right before the plea deal was entered, it suggests maybe that these individuals are not quite ready to take full responsibility, even though they have expected the plea

deal. i will also note that my 12 year old marveled at mr. chesebro's handwriting, she said it was almost as good as her own. >> i'm surprised he even managed to get the spelling and that correctly. rick, one of the topics of the apology was how satisfying it was to see these two in writing, expressing some kind of remorse to overturn our democracy now that we have it. i'm important is it for us to have that in writing? >> well, i think that melissa's point is that they were perfunctory, that was very well taken. they have kind of felt like, i'm sorry that you're offended, we tried to over -- of the free and fair election. i actually think that all of these people wrote these letters thinking about donald trump over their shoulder. they were doing the bare minimum. it is a situation where they should have been more open, honest, and direct about the level of what they did, and the transgression that they made on the democratic principles.

look, i am happy that they are being held to account. i hope that the plea deals are structured in a such a way where they are very much mandated to be front and center as the case rolls forward, as witnesses have full cooperators. i hope they do not get any slack were degree of, okay, you have written your two line apology, now go on your way and say no more. >> i was going to say. there is a slight humility aiding aspect to it. that makes me think that even though there is perfunctory, you have mark meadows having a poor performance before the appeals court this week. it does seem like he could be in for a world of hurt. do you think that he is banking on 2024 if trump wins? do you think that he sees the writing on the wall and sees what is happening to people like jenna alice and others, kenneth chesebro, even with this letter, and might change his tune? >> look, it is a lot of time between now and when the next president is sworn in.

nothing is certain. i do think that mark meadows would be smart to keep what is going on in some of these other cases, you know? we do not know yet the extent to which he might or might not be cooperating. the reality is that for each of these defendants, there is some level of accountability. although i think that, for example, one line sentence is, you know, maybe not what we are used to hearing from defendants that plead guilty. it is an acknowledgment, and it's a sense of accountability where they did something wrong. i think that for the public to have that, in addition to what the outcome might be for them, is still very important. >> melissa, let's talk about this cell phone data the jack smith has obtained. we have so many questions about it. how the heck did he actually get it? secondly, how do you imagine he plans on using it at trial?

thirdly, if you can, is donald trump likely to challenge it on the basis that the ex president, the data, the metadata included in, it could reveal to adversaries and others around the world where the president is at any given moment? if it functions, if he's using cell phone towers like the rest of us? it could be revealed locations that the general public doesn't know about. where he was on that day. >> sure. before i take those questions, i will just also say about the georgia indictment, even if donald trump wins the election, he cannot pardon anybody in the georgia indictment. those are state level charges. his presidential pardon power only extends to federal charges. in terms of this cell phone data, it seems very likely that this was received by subpoenaing the cell phone companies themselves. it seems like trump would not have given them this up voluntarily. it really does go to the question of intent and frame of mind. and also what he just pieced together with the day-by-day routine that occurred in the oval office leading up to the events of january 6th. in that sense, it really does

help the timeline quality, and might also go to show some of these other things like what he has been thinking. what kind of state of mind he was in, who is contacting, and perhaps revealing other sources that could then be called upon during the worst of trial. this is certainly the kind of evidentiary property that donald trump would likely challenge, and again, as you say, it could be challenged on a number of grounds. specifically, the idea that this kind of information, this kind of metadata has broader consequences beyond this broader trial. it could also be what things look like in the oval office, and perhaps could be used by our adversaries to pinpoint another president at another time. >> i want to pivot a bit if i can. on friday, you have the washington d.c. order in giuliani to pay more than 100 and $48 million to two georgia election workers for the harm caused by defamatory statements that he made following the 2020 election. let me get your reaction to that settlement, and what that

actually means in the big picture as one more piece of the puzzle that this was all a big lie falls into place. >> i think that what happened to the election workers in georgia, because of his continued lies about them, they face a particularly elevated level of threat and risk in the perfect -- the personal harm and distress. the judgment in this case is a very large judgment. it is well beyond what rudy could paid for the rest of his life, no matter what. it is certainly a striking moment that the senior most lawyer around rudy, the one with the most experience. the one that was supposedly the guy that was going to spearhead this entire thing, it might unfold as closure. my old boss in 25 years, he ended up finding himself alone, broke, and hung out to dry for continuing to tell lies of such scope and degree, and harm of even now. he walked out of the courtroom

after the judgment and was still broadly hinting that he had secret information, we let it go, and so it really is disappointing to watch anybody in our process lie that much. that harmful. rudy's life is over. he will die in poverty now. the kind of guy that will never have $2 to rub together because they're going to take everything the minute that he gets anybody in the door. it's going right back out again. >> between chesebro, powell, meadows, and giuliani, it feels like the theme of this segment is, if you follow donald trump, you inevitably end up in court. you probably do not win in court. do you think that the legal developments this week are unnerving? his trump's current political team at all? >> i think that there have been a series of decisions that have come, which have really not worked in donald trump's favor. with these particular

defendants this week, it is another of a line of decisions that are going to stay with all of these folks. look, donald trump might think that he plays by a certain set of rules. the role that you have to play by our one which you are going to be held to account. i think that this court tends what is it coming down the line. it will be interesting to see what happens when the supreme court finally does get this case at least on the immunity issue. i think that that will spell trouble for donald trump all the way down the line. >> rick wilson, thank you so much. melissa, donna, please stick around. after the break, we will discuss the backlash to a republican abortion laws about how the gop presidential candidates are struggling to address them. first, jessica lane is here with the headlines. hello, jess. >> hello, ayman, thank you. there are stories that we're watching at this hour. the republican party of florida voted to functionally strip all power from current chairman christian ziegler, who is under criminal investigation for

sexual assault, including rape. the party was unable to vote to oust ziegler during an emergency meeting. they plan to do that next month. ziegler has not been formally charged, and is denying any wrongdoing. heavy rain and strong winds are causing major coastal flooding in the carolinas tonight. the east coast storm has also left thousands in florida without power. the storm system will continue to sleep -- the northeast after the next 24 hours. russia and ukraine are launching a second straight day of drone attacks on each other. russian officials say that at least 35 ukrainian drones were shot down across southwestern russia. one of these targets, an airbase that was hosting bomber aircraft. ukrainian officials say that they shut down 20 ukrainian made drones in southern and western ukraine. they know that at least one civilian was killed in that aftermath. more ayman with ayman mohyeldin coming up after the break. ming up after the break. e sharp. try new neuriva ultra.

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abortion bans are putting wome in white life threatening binds, leaving many doctors in anxiety inducing gray areas over fears of prosecution. a recent story out of ohio hilights this horrifying reality. a black woman in the state, criminally charged after having a miscarriage. on september 19th, 33 year old britney watts went to the hospital where a doctor informed her. that the pregnancy was no longer viable. she returned to the hospital the next, morning where for eight hours, doctors and officials deliberating over the legalities of inducing a pre-term pregnancy. she was one day shy of 22 weeks pregnant. the point when abortion becomes illegal in ohio. two days later when she was at home, she miscarried into her toilet. she was charged with a felony abuse of a corpse over her actions after the miscarriage. laws on how to handle a fetal remain, especially in a late and rare miscarriage at home like watsons, are not at all

clear, even to doctors and health care officials. britney watts is experiencing just one example of the heroes of pregnancy and the threat of criminalization for people all across the united states. it highlights the lack of clarity around what is and is not permitted under strict anti abortion laws. in this case, it also comes into focus at the same time as one in texas with the story of kate cox. a dallas woman that sought permission to end her pregnancy after finding out that her fetus had a fatal genetic condition, that in term, could affect her ability to have more children in the future. she had already left the state to get an abortion when the texas supreme court ruled against, are saying she does not qualify for the medical exception to the band. my panel is back with me. two very troubling cases there, melissa, and i wanted to get your reaction to the story of britney watts out of ohio first. this grueling ordeal that she went through. talk to me about how this

reflects the complexities of what our health care and reproductive doctors, and women are going through right now in this country. >> i am really glad that you're covering the britney watts case, it hasn't nearly seen as much coverage as the kate cox case has, it's very important. basically, what the supreme court lacked in the wake of roe and overruling roe was a lot of confusion. ohio has a very draconian ban on abortion, but there are exceptions. the problem is that doctors do not know when those exceptions kick in, and whether medical judgment will be taken out, or whether it will be judged by non medical professionals when the time comes. it does create an incredibly confused atmosphere, where physicians are unwilling to perform this procedure unless they're absolutely sure that they will be in the clear. again, kate cox story resonates with all of the states

positions. kate cox was in a situation where she needed an abortion, her doctor thought she needed an abortion. she could not get one. the doctor was not going to take the chance of providing one knowing that texas has such a broad landscape where physicians, or anybody helping somebody to seek an abortion can be both criminally and civilly liable thereafter. it does create a very difficult to situation for physicians. without that clarity, you will have more and more women facing these incredibly difficult circumstances, and basically risking their lives in order to achieve what the state views as an acceptable moment in which to have an abortion. >> congresswoman, it's only going to get worse. even before roe v. wade was overturned, black women were disproportionately criminalized while pregnant. now abortion bans have an outsized impact on women of color. how has this mistreatment changed since roe v. wade was overturned? >> this is the absolute mess

that was entirely predictable with the overturning of roe. what you see particularly with black women, with poorer women, their ability to leave, there are now 16 states where you can effectively can't get an abortion. kate cox had to leave the state to get an abortion. she could afford to do that. so many women all across the country cannot. not only is endangering their health, it is endangering any future prospects for pregnancy that they might have as well. here you have a circumstance where doctors are confused, patients are confused, they are less stranded. medical boards, some of them will not even take up these cases because they are afraid of making a decision which could land them either in prison, or losing a medical license. this is an absolute mess. that is why i think that first of all voters have to act, and congress has to act.

really to secure the right to an abortion for women that are caught in the circumstance. >> melissa, talk about the confusion caused by overlapping laws here, that lack of clarity when it comes to certain state bands. we saw this with the kate cox story in texas. it's not clear when there should be exceptions to this? is this kind of ambiguity by design, or, you know, is it a byproduct of the fact that the federal government and supreme court have basically absolved themselves for giving us clarity on this? >> when the court withdrew the national right to abortion in the dobbs opinion, they left this patchwork of laws across the various states. that kind of confusion was predicted, and predictable. it is also part of what people want to see happen when there is confusion, chaos, individuals don't know what they're permitted to do. that is a case where rights can be chilled. maybe it could be the case that kate cox was entitled to have

the abortion. but maybe brittani watts was entitled to have the abortion. as long as they don't have the authority to perform, and it will limit their conduct. they won't perform the abortion. in that sense, that kind of chaos can be as effective as the actual ban. >> congresswoman, let's talk about the politics of this. it's been going off -- these stories are going to be come more frequent, sadly and unfortunately. what do democrats have to know? we are just discussing it on this show. i'm not sure everyone in america was watching the show to learn the names of britney watts and kate cox. what is it that the democratic party, those that care about reproductive rights in this country need to do with these stories ahead of 2024 to make sure that everybody has a clear understanding of what is actually happening? it's no longer hypothetical, we are dealing with real world, real people cases. >> the stories really put a face on what is the issue of

abortion, unlike any other time. frankly, voters are playing attention to this. it is why democrats really have headwinds going into 2024, because of abortion rights on number one. we have seen that with the ohio electorates on the referendum. we have seen it in kansas. they've been seeing it across the country where voters are mobilizing, galvanized around this issue. particularly young voters, both men and women. suburban voters. these are key targets for democrats. democrats need to continue to hammer this. some of those presidential candidates on the other side, the republican side, they don't make sense to me. this notion of talking about compassion, when you're allowing the women's life to be in danger, it doesn't make any sense to me. it does not make to sense to the american people. >> all right, donna edwards, melissa murray. thank you to the both of you for joining. as we really appreciate all of your time and insights.

coming up, the knoxville -- not so surprising hypocrisy from the man running president biden's impeachment inquiry. robert garcia, back on the show to discuss it and more after the quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.

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and not trumpian turn of events that we should have seen coming, the man leading the biden impeachment inquiry has apparently gauged and identical behavior to what he has attacked the president fo doing. the associated press has found that a shell company held by the chair of the house oversight committee, yes, that guy, james comer. functioned in a somalia paid way to the biden family's own companies. four months comer had harangue the biden family for leveraging their name to conduct business s and using shell companies to cloud their transaction with

parties. deals that have never been linked back to the president. series of interviews and record searchesconducted by the ap show that comer did something remarkably similar, transferring a six acre parcel of land, co owned with one of his major campaign voters, darrin clary, to a shell company that he created in 2017 with his wife. comer has rejected the ap's report, he has yet to provide evidence showing that reporting is actually inaccurate. back with us tonight, good friend of the program, robert garcia of california, he's a member of the house oversight committee. congressman, great to have you on the show. thank you for coming on. let me get your reaction to this clear double standard from james comer accusing biden of engaging in the same type of dirty deals that he's reportedly been involved with himself. is he following the trump playbook of accusing your opponents of what you've been doing, every accusation is

always projection with him? >> absolutely. good to see you. absolutely. a couple things, number one, james comer has been an absolute terrible chairman of the oversight committee. he brings up conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory, he's obsessed with hunter biden, he's obsessed with president biden and his focus on trying to impeach the president with zero evidence, a complete political stunt. the irony here, the hypocrisy, is that comer has been gauged, he's -- of doing himself. what we didn't know is not only does james comer open about 16,000 acres, he described himself as a simple farmer, by the way, in kentucky he also has a set aside campaign donor that we know very little about. and he hasn't been publicly disclosed. it's very concerning for not having any sort of disclosure. but more importantly, of the chairman of the committee essentially doing exactly what

he's been accusing hunter biden of doing, and somehow benefiting because of his family. it is complete hypocrisy. it's absolutely straight out of the trump playbook. and it's not surprising considering james comer basically does exactly what donald trump tells him to do. donald trump is basically the puppeteer of the whole operation. we should hold investigation into what james comer is doing, it would be a better use of our time. >> i was gonna say not a single house republican voted against formalizing this impeachment inquiry against president biden despite the fact that there's no evidence linking him to any crime or wrongdoing. i go back to the point, republicans have loved to call investigations into donald trump's political witch hunt, but this has another clear example of projection for the republicans. it's clear, the reason why they are doing this is simply to have political ammunition for the presidential race, nothing more. >> 100 percent.

first, i talked to numerous republicans, especially the freshman, who know and have said there is zero evidence. many have said so publicly. no one can actually find any sort of link between hunter biden's business dealings and the president. look, hunter biden will face his own legal process, we understand that, he will go through that. but there is no linger any wrongdoing to the white house where the president. all the accusations that james comer has tried to make are just not true. they keep saying they want documents. they've turned over close to 30,000 plus documents, they've done interviews with family members, business associates, what they're trying to do is basically get donald trump reelected. donald trump has said, wow, i've had impeachment articles against me, -- let's not forget another person sits on the oversight committee's marjorie taylor greene. she also pushes james comer. she's been trying to impeach president biden from day one. the first day the president was

in office, she's trying to impeach him. >> at the same time you're seeing vulnerable house republicans and districts that joe biden actually won, people have to make adult decisions like mike lawler, trying to have their cake and eat it too, they support the inquiry but they refrained from saying that they will impeach joe biden. do you think this stems from a concern that going down this road is going to cost them politically next year? >> well, mike lawler is in a vulnerable seat, let's be clear about his voting record, he votes like a maga extremist. absolutely, they want to say that they're not sure if he should be impeached, there should be an inquiry if they vote with extreme wings either party against women, against choice, against basic human rights for all people. this is a party that has fallen deeply into the right, into the extremes of the maga republican party. mike johnson, the speaker, they come from that wing, this is where they had it, they'll do

what it takes to get donald trump reelected. but we're here to help them stop. that >> congressman robert garcia of california, sir, great to have you, -- just ahead we'll turn to gaza. more distressing developments as the world enters its third month. s thir month.

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military acknowledged that their troops had shot and killed three israeli hostages held in the gaza strip.

it was not clear whether they were abandoned or had escaped, their captors said the three hotly -- aussies were shirtless, speaking in hebrew, and waving a white flag when they approached soldiers. despite, that the israeli soldiers opened fire on the hostages, killing all three of them. the incident has raised alarming questions about the rules of engagement in gaza, and the broader conduct of its troops against palestinians. since the beginning of this war on october 7th, palestinians in gaza have documented some of these alleged atrocities. in other cases, the israeli soldiers have filmed themselves engaging in disturbing and troubling behavior. we are going to show you some of the footage tonight, but a warning, it is disturbing. earlier this week, video footage emerged showing the destruction left in the yard of the hospital in northern gaza after a reported israeli raid. witnesses said that the army had exploited entrances of the gate, riding the building.

people were killed and buried under the rubble. the israeli military denied varying civilians alive, saying quote, the hospital was cynically used as hamas by a civilian cover. and another incident, several bodies discovered inside of a school in joshua rhea after the israeli military had withdrawn from the building there. according to witnesses and testimony obtained by al jazeera, and journalists on the ground, 15 people sheltering at the school were killed in what was described as close range executions. in response, the israeli military said in part, quote, the claims made in the article on al jazeera our deceitful, biased, and lack truth and foundation. any allegation of deliberate harm to civilians is devoid of any basis. in one video sent to msnbc news, we see israeli soldiers forcing naked and blindfolded palestinian prisoners on the bus, cursing and spitting at them as they make their way in. in the response, the israeli

military has said that the suspect shown in the video are suspected of involvement in terrorist activities. they were apprehended in forces shortly after the beginning of the war. nbc news has not independently verified when or where the incident occurred, or whether any of those individuals were later charged. disturbing videos are emerging almost daily, showing israeli actions in gaza. in one footage, we see them bombing a united nations school. >> it's not clear why the israelis would destroy a u.n. school, after clearing it and diming it no longer a threat to their operations.

here, a soldier and -- throwing snow globes and knick-knacks on the ground. he appears to be laughing while doing so. another video, israeli troops are setting fire to items which include boxes of water bottles inside of a truck. they joked the fire represents the second candle of hanukkah. food and water are a -- millions of the palestinians besieged in gaza. here, soldiers riding bicycles through the rubble. the israeli military has told msnbc news that they condemned these actions, and that they are not aligned with their values. they also said that they are reviewing these cases, and the disciplinary measures would be taken. israeli and international human rights groups that have documented the israeli troop misconduct for years now say that actions like these really result in punishment. palestinians are even less likely to receive justice inside of israeli military courts. one incident where the military says that they have taken

action, immediately after this video emerged of soldiers desecrating a mosque. the soldiers can be seen holding a microphone reciting a jewish prayer inside of the empty mosque of jenin in the west bank. other footage obtained by cnn turkey in eastern jerusalem, showing israeli border police officers hit the journalist must off of her roof in the head with a gun, and then kick him repeatedly as he is on the ground. the commander of the border police suspended the officers pending a thorough investigation. look, these are just some of the alleged atrocities and misconduct we have learned about in the past several weeks. we only know about them because video of these violations have emerged. each can be an isolated incident, but in the totality, they penned it disturbing and troubling picture of his really misconduct inside of gaza and across the occupied palestinian territories. let me remind, you what you just saw, that is just since

october 7th. we are not talking about years and decades of military occupations of palestinians at large. they do raise fundamental questions about the conduct of this war, and its data objectives. after the, break we are going to continue the discussion with journalist kevin, bear and covering the military and pentagon for 20 years. pentagon for 20 years. and find your voice. you know? we really need to work on your people skills.

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i want to unpack what we were outlining before the break. joining me is kevin baron, editorial director at political live, and former executive of defense one. he's covered the military and the pentagon for several years. kevin, great to have you on. -- there are of some of the conduct of israeli soldiers. and now we've seen the tragic incident of these hostages plus last week the israeli military suffering one of its deadliest days in the 70 days of fighting. questions are being raised about the objectives of this

war. what is your take on whether we're making progress or the israeli military is making progress and what it's stated objectives are? >> i think difficulty asking the question is difficulty to answer. we've seen a ten-week war in response to the initial attack that has been enormous, it surprised everyone including the pentagon. you know how pentagon leaders scrambling to the middle east, including secretary of defense lloyd austin them, c.q. brown, they're following john corolla all basically begging the israelis to change course to stop a large-scale war and shift this to some more targeted war and move on to some new phase. jake sullivan and john kirby making statements and reporting on background officials saying they hope they can convince

israelis to do that within three weeks, by mid january, i tell you i'm anxious to see what comes out of this trip. if i was on i have a whole lot of follow-up questions including what if israel says no, then what, whatever pressure the united states has on israel influence the united states over israel, it's shown that it's been the mission is day after day as netanyahu does what he wants, he's one of the last leader's -- military intelligence cooperation, it's historic close cooperation and a whole lot of u.s. military arms with the israelis rely on. >> you covered militaries for 20 years, you have insight into the american military, and perhaps some of the year as we covered on social media was not around, israeli soldiers now an american citizens at the beginning of the war in 2003, post 9/11, weren't able to document.

>> can you imagine. >> they're not showing or documenting what they're doing. how bizarre, how alarming is it for you that you're seeing israeli soldiers capture and document some of these disturbing at the very least acts of what we've seen throughout the war and in some cases what we're seeing in the west bank and other places in the palestinian territories? >> of course it's alarming, it's not what you expect from a western military that supposed to be professional, and well trained, well disciplined, and doesn't behave and act like anything else but that. you referenced in that bet, israelis have a history of some behaving badly. this has gone far beyond that. the brazenness to fill them themselves, post it, i think it's a couple things, it shows the extent to which the israelis were hurt, upset, they're angry, they're paced, they're seeking revenge.

it also shows a lack of discipline. the americans going into iraq, maybe going into afghanistan would've been different, the americans are guilty of things like that to. and that doesn't excuse anything. it means that this has a whole other level, has a lot of commentators have come on television, a lot of seasoned generals, diplomats, they're beside themselves trying to figure out how to get past this, some have hope, some have less hope. and so you know, you read the papers and folks are talking about two-state solutions, netanyahu, but for ten weeks since the initial attack on october 7th, we have a long way to go before we get past what we're saying. >> let me ask you about the killing of these three israeli hostages, the israeli military is taking responsibility for it, they said the hostages did everything possible so that the soldiers would understand that they were not a threat. how does something like this

happen, what does it reveal about the israeli military's rules of engagement. people have been making the comparison that even them coming out and saying we take responsibility for these, what about maybe hundreds if not thousands of palestinians that we don't know about, they won't take responsibility for? >> yeah, let's focus on this incident, i spent a lot of time covering and in circles of hostages of the last couple complex, the ices comp wiped, afghanistan, this is unusual especially you'd expect different from the israelis. it takes a whole lot of data before a hostage rescue team decides to go in and make a move. they need to have all sorts of confidence that the hostages are there, that there's a high chance of success, that they don't end up doing exactly what happened. even hearing the israeli saying they take responsibility, it's not enough. i'm a journalist, i want to see

a report to know what went wrong. all those other cases that you've been showing in that last video of israelis not taking extreme measures to prevent civilian death is just over wilding. and, frankly the entire way the war is being waged has shown that. that's why we have an estimated 20,000 civilian deaths. it's a bit of a paradox because you have americans like lloyd austin on his way to the region, who has cautioned that, hey, try to live black by black -- in a place like gaza. we'd be a suicide for soldiers to do it. it would be difficult probably unsuccessful, and what resulted hostages. the opposite extreme of what we've seen, it's not much -- for that purpose. >> kevin baron, the best to talk to you about this complicated issue. thank you for your time, we appreciate it. thank you for making time for us at home.

make sure to catchayman on msnbc at eight, follow us on acts, instagram, at ayman msnbc. until we meet again, ayman mole yell dean in new york. have a good night. ve a good night. - bye, bye cough. - later chest congestion. hello 12 hours of relief. 12 hours!! not coughing? hashtag still not coughing?! mucinex dm gives you 12 hours of relief from chest congestion and any type of cough, day or night. mucinex dm. it's comeback season. known as a loving parent. mucinex dm. known for lessons that matter. known for lessons that matter. known for being a free spirit.

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